Gene Shaw Family Interview [ w/Ms. Leah Mondino]

  
[Happy New Year! Back again after a long holiday break with some new amazing interview material and hopefully with more vinyl rarities to come soon...

Trumpeter Clarence 'Gene' Shaw was born in Detroit in 1926 and burst suddenly onto the New York Jazz scene in 1957 as a sideman for Charles Mingus and his Jazz Workshop. Shaw in quick succession cut  'Tijuana Moods' (rec July 1957,released much later) for RCA, 'East Coasting' (rec. August 1957), 'A Modern Jazz Symposium Of Music And Poetry' (rec. August 1957) for Bethlehem with Mingus.

After a falling out with Mingus over a missed recording date due to illness, Shaw quit the Jazz Workshop and left New York . Despite their conflict, Mingus very much admired Shaw and his playing. Shaw later resurfaced in Chicago in the early 1960s where he cut 3 amazing sides on Chess/Argo as a leader ('Breakthrough' [1962)], 'Debut in Blues' [1963], and 'Carnival Sketches' [1964]) . All three sides are now out of print and have received spotty reissue attention in the CD era: 'Breakthrough' was released on CD in 2008 by the Chicago boutique label Dusty Groove but is now out of print, Carnival Sketches was released in Japan on CD in the late 90s (?) and is impossible to obtain, and Debut in Blues has never been issued on CD. All three sides are worth seeking out and are representative of Shaw's playing.

 After recording Carnival Sketches in 1964, Shaw never recorded again and subsequently  drifted in and out of jazz scenes in Chicago and Detroit from the mid to the late 1960s before his death in California in 1974. Shaw retains a mysterious aura about him; contemporaries remembered him as a fantastic talent and nice man, but he was a bit of an enigma. I've only been  able to locate one contemporary interview with Shaw by Don DeMicheal in Downbeat Magazine/January 30, 1964, where Shaw comments about his experiences with Mingus and his larger, deeper spiritual interests.  However, much remains unknown about Shaw's life. Better go direct to the source (i.e. his family) to get the complete and full story.

Several months ago I had the amazing opportunity and privilege to connect with Gene Shaw's eldest daughter, Ms. Leah (Shaw) Mondino. Leah is a very cool lady and she has written about her father as well in a Squidoo profile. Leah,who was incredibly forthcoming and generous with her time, is an artist and teacher who divides her time between Italy and Florida.  The following extensive interview with Leah about the life of her father and his family was compiled from various telephone, skype, and email exchanges between the both of us these past few months. Pictures are courtesy of Leah and are property of the Shaw family.. Hope you enjoy!]

When and where was your father born? Can you tell me something about his immediate family and childhood? 

Although my father seldom spoke of his past there were some stories. He spoke of Detroit, he was born in there, Michigan June 1926 as you probably know. He had some American Indian origins from the Blackfoot tribe of Montana. (He took us to our first powwow when we were kids) He grew up with his aunt and uncle as his mother worked for the Fords (Ford Motor Cars) as a maid and she was seldom home, as a matter of fact, she came home solely on the weekends. His aunt and uncle were strict, he used to say he grew up without ever playing with a toy.

Later in life, dad lost complete communication with his aunt and uncle due to a dispute over a parking lot in downtown Detroit that his aunt and uncle claimed as their own but which was supposed to be his inheritance, having belonged to his mother. He also used to tell us about Sammy Davis Jr, and how Sammy came from the "other side of the tracks" and how he had never liked Sammy. (I remember this story because at the time I was just trilled that he knew Sammy Davis Jr. who was still big at the time!) I have photos of when I was a baby that show my mom with some of Gene's relatives, but I never knew them at an older age. (I've had zip zero and nada luck finding them, although I've never fully had the knowledge or resources to track them, I sure would love to find some family though!)

How was your father first introduced to jazz? What role did music and art play in his life? Did he have any formal music education and training? 

I think I read some story where he was inspired to play the trumpet while laid up with war injuries. I don't know where the true origin of his love for music came from, or when it occurred. My mother told us he as self taught, and he said he was self taught as well. He could read and write music, and I remember him writing his own music, and the band member's music on the piano as well. He also wrote all original music he'd play for the Gurdjieff group. The group got together for movement work, or just "movements" in which they did a sort of dance. It was robotic yet flowing, quite beautiful in it's own way. The meetings were very soothing for us. We hated them and loved them at the same time! The music was supposed to help you concentrate, to bring you into a focused inward state to ultimately bring wakefulness. For me, a lot of the original Gurdjieff music is very soft. I feel my father's music for movements, was much more aggressive. He was very disciplined about his music. The sound had to be exactly the way it was supposed to be in his head and I remember him being quiet unforgiving about it. 

After one summer, when people where knocking on our door everyday from all kinds of places in the world, I became curious about all the bustle, I knew these people were coming for the music, finally one day I asked him “What is it about your music that makes it so special?”  He said “It is because of the way I can make the sound from this part of the trumpet.” (indicating the bell) I was pretty little and pretended to understand. But looking back he was sincere when he said this and it made sense, he did have a specific sound. I think now he was telling to explain as simply as possible to a little girl. There was some technique he had that had to do with the bell. He also was very specific about when and how to clear his trumpet, an how he kept it in general. All very disciplined. When he wasn't practicing or greeting these new people who'd come to visit him from half a world away. He was sharing his music, his knowledge and I tend to think of him as a teacher. I have a lot of memories of my father sitting at the piano, paper in lap, pencil resting on said piano, as he tapped out notes or played full chords only to quickly stop and scribble away. 

How did your father and mother, (Marjorie Bell Wilson) first meet? How much pressure did they face from their family for their ground-breaking interracial marriage? You wrote that your mother became an outcast from her family after her marriage to her father – did she eventually reconcile with her family after society caught up to your parents? Did your mother write more about her marriage , her children and her life? (Your mother strikes me as a very interesting person in her own right, and I’d love to hear and learn about her as well- Wasn’t she also involved in politics as an activist in New York?) 

My mother tells that while walking down a street in Detroit she heard beautiful music coming from a bar. Drawn by the music she entered and sat down. My father saw and approached her during a break in the set and they were together from that moment on. I don't know if they thought it was ground breaking. I think they were simply in love and saw something in each other. It certainly was a brave act for the time. It seems to me that my mother paid dearly for her choice. I mentioned earlier that I have baby photos that show her with some of dad's relatives. So it seems as though to a certain extent they excepted her. Unfortunately I have no such photos from my mother's rather large side of the family. The limited correspondence I've had with them indicates that some of them did not know. (Your mother told us you were Hawaiian) to mild acceptance. God will forgive you for being colored.) Either way my sister and I did not/ and do not, know them. We grew up without extended family. 

She was always alone, and that must have been extremely difficult. As for my father, he was a-racial, at least I think of him that way on the surface. He did however give us both boys names. Stacey in 1959 was a name given to boys. (Think Stacy Keach, the actor?) He believed that since we were black, and also female, we had very short sticks to work with in life. Our middle names came for our mother, who was southern and you hear it in the names; Stacey Leah, pronounce Leigh, and Keven Jean. (But don't worry, you are saying it right. My Italian husband actually gave it it's current pronunciation!) He didn't have an accent at all. He wasn't funky ha! But I know he could talk the talk when he wanted. You couldn't tell what race he was by phone. Neither my sister or myself have that accent either. 

I have no knowledge of my mother being an activist although it wouldn't surprise me to hear that she was. I have a couple of newspaper articles with her involved in some ground breaking business initiatives so as a woman she was ahead of her time. My mother's family were from the South and they were Southern baptists. She ended up having a limited reconciliation with her father and they spoke to each other by phone once in awhile. But it was a reluctant relationship, almost like a son that has told his father he is gay, the acceptance is bitter at best. Because of my parents deaths at such a young age society never caught up to or with them. Although they existed in and suffered from the current forms of racism, my father having to walk on the other side of the street when we all were in public, or my father actually being beaten up for the same reason, I think both my parents believed that they were “above” race even as they suffered the consequences of it. They lived in their own dimension, a parallel world of their own making with very forward beliefs. The price of those beliefs was isolation.  If you asked him today, I know for a fact that he would say, “You are what you believe you are.” 

Can you tell me something about Gene Shaw, the man, as a father? What are your clearest memories of him, simply  as your dad’’? What were some of his interests and passions outside of music and jazz? (The next question probably addresses this as well, but perhaps may not cover everything) 

Clearest memories of Gene as Gene? Our house was filled with Music, Billy Holiday, Sarah Vaughn, Gene's music, The weight of his trumpet, and being surprised to make no sound the first time I blew through it. Gene/dad resting on the couch with his head resting in his right hand. Dad reading us "The Little Prince." our bed time story, while the all time popular song "The Age Of Aquarius" played in the background. We lived at one point on top of a bar, and the music from the jukebox could be heard through the floor. Drinking coke and eating beef jerky with my sister in the night clubs that were so dark, during the day. He had no where to leave us so we'd have to sit quietly, (we tried, but weren't always successful!) while he practiced with his band. All the foreigners, that knocked on the door day and night. The bass, that sat on the platform waiting for the next rehearsal. For some reason I always loved that instrument and when I see one now a days, which is rare, it takes me right back to childhood, feeling safe and warm. It doesn't even have to be played, just seeing it brings back good memories.

 His sitting in his favorite position on the couch and telling me that my dreams of falling, (I used to have nightmares about falling when I was young) meant that I could fly in my dreams if I practiced, and later me taking his words to heart and not only being able to fly in my dreams but eventually and end to all nightmares and taking complete control over my dreams. Can't do this anymore, got too old I guess. Waiting for Christmas to receive doll house furniture and miniature items he'd made by hand. His funny faces. he was a master of funny faces, his strange noises and funny words. To this day my sister has nick names for people that are sound alone, I suspect that came from him. 

He called us the little people, always spoke to us as if we were small adults. Never talked down to us. His silver Enneagram. I just recently realized that this symbol also represents musical notes. The way he argued, always logical, always on target. His arguments were like a debate. You could present your side, if it made sense, you could win. But it had to be logical and you had to speak well. Being taught Chess, but never letting me win. (Chess was HIS game!)

His stories, especially The Girl In The Mirror. His Siamese cat Kinny, the wise warrior who once fought off an intruder in our home with success The way people were inspired by him, especially musically, he always brought out the best (best as in excellence) in people. Him playing the piano for the Gurjieff meetings, Still hear those songs in my head. Very strange music. Taking me to my first powwow. Him insisting we were part Indian through his line, from the Blackfoot tribe, me not believing it because it was so sudden. How strict he was, how disciplined, and how he wanted us to be disciplined and in control of our emotions as well, in the face of fear, doubt and/or uncertainty. Teaching me how to throw a punch to protect myself. His music, especially the Break Through album, how all the songs play permanently in my head.

It strikes me that spirituality was very important to your father – can you tell me more about  the Gurdjieff society and George Gurdjieff?  How was your father  first introduced to Gurjieff’s teachings? Did your father struggle with his life as a musician and his remaining true to his spiritual beliefs?

First you have to remember that my parents moved to and lived in Greenwich Village, the heart of the beat generation a time and place of non conformity and exploration. The "Beats" were some of the most famous people and the village home to some of the most radical ideas in general. A very specific type of person took up residence in the Village, and my parents were very unusual people so they were right at home. You know I had a breakthrough moment myself while reading the article you sent me. You asked me when Gene became involved with the Gurjieff group? They had a hypnotism school, (Incidentally, my mother loved to tell the story of how I was born in St Vincents using the techniques they practiced in their hypnotism school and how the doctors weren't ready for it and quickly knocked her out.)
 
 And suddenly they completely stopped with the enterprise. Why? While reading the article I saw the passage about a man that Gene wouldn't name, who walked into his shop. He describes the man as appearing a certain way, and than later appearing another. I believe that THIS was the moment he became involved with Gurjieff that the mysterious man was the person who introduced him to it and that he was so captured by the ideas that he remained a part of it and it a part of him, for the rest of his life. Ditto for my mother. In a nutshell my father believed to truly be a part of life, to live, you had to be awake. To be awake you had to strive to remember yourself. The movements helped one focus. To remember yourself one must be aware that you were asleep most of the time and strive on a constant basis, to  wake up. This required work, hence the name "the work." His music was never compromised by this belief, instead the music helped him focus his efforts in this direction. To Gene, his music, his life, and the work, were one and the same.

Your father Gene Shaw is probably best known in jazz circles-jazz scholarship as a sideman/supporting player for Charles Mingus in 1957-1958 (Tijuana Moods).  Did your father enjoy playing for Mingus?  It strikes me that the relationship with Mingus was difficult. Mingus biographers speak of an incident in March 1958 when Mingus threatened to have your father killed by the mob (!- typical Mingus bluster and exaggeration) after Gene couldn’t make a recording session because of illness. Your dad quit Mingus’ jazz workshop group immediately. Do you have any more information about this confrontation? Can you tell me if it’s even accurate?

As for the whole Mingus story. I know there was some thought about it in later years as Gene would mention him in conversation. As for the actual details, I think he told his side in the article and I'm going to stick with that. Remember, I wasn't born yet! However, strangely enough, there is a story of the mob and since his story is about the mob, I thought I'd include it. Perhaps Herb can enlighten you about the timing here though. My parents had the store at the time and the mob had it in for my parents neighbor who had a small shop next door. One night they came by to rough the neighbor up and started by smashing in his front plate glass window.., except it wasn't his window, it was ours! When the mob figured out they'd smashed the wrong window, they returned, replaced the window and apologized to my mother. She enjoyed telling us this story and we have heard it many times, this mistake the mob had made. She loved Italians, knew a couple of their songs, in Italian and told that story with girlish laughter and much happiness.

The period from 1961-64 after your father relocated to Chicago, and recorded his three LPs for the Chess/Argo label, was  perhaps the  most  musically  productive and artistically rewarding period in your father’s career in jazz – yet you also write that this period also coincided with the deterioration of your parent’s relationship  and marriage– can you tell me something more about this period? Memories of life in Chicago?  How important were these records to your father? Was there any extensive preparation for these recordings? Does his family  still receive any royalties from this records? Any plans for more extensive reissues?

This is a bit of a difficult question. New York was a dynamic period for them both. After moving to Chicago of course things changed and there wasn't much they did together, which I believe is where the problem began. They did still go to the Gurjieff meetings, but not much happened for my mother. My sister was born in 1961 and between the 2 of us, her everyday life with kids took up a lot of her time. My understanding of it, the meat of it, was/ is that ultimately they had a difference in opinion about the philosophy of "the work" and how to proceed with it. He said that It was this that ended the marriage. I suspect that the reality of having kids, and looking after said kids, financially, emotionally, and spiritually, was in conflict with the philosophy itself, which put them in conflict with each other. Their relationship survived until the day he died, Although divorced, my parents spent their life's in dialogue. They argued back and forth about the concept of the work through their letters. A kind of love story in the end. As for memories of Chicago... 

You might remember that although their was a ratification in the constitution a little earlier in the United States, most schools were still segregated when I started kindergarten in 1965. We lived in black neighborhoods, it was easier for my parents to live there, and we kids attended all black schools, until desegregation really kicked in. My mother spent time being a mom, and saving a lot of animals, lots of birds, from lake Michigan, my father taught me to fight, I was being picked on at school, used to get it from both races, and he thought I had to take responsibility for this by learning how to protect myself. I ended up breaking someone's nose at which time he didn't say a word in the poor fellow's defense. He also taught me how to ride a bike. And of course the music of his albums would forever play in my heads, note for note because we heard them so much during this time. An aside note; both my sister and I hated the cover of Breakthrough. To us it was disturbing, dirty even, and we were embarrassed by it. 

Royalties? Not a chance! No royalties, and sometimes when times got tough, we'd get angry about that. I hit the roof as a matter of fact when I heard they'd re released Breakthrough a few years back. Wrote a nasty letter to Rick at Dusty Groove. But he was so nice and obviously didn't have anything to do with it so, difficult to stay mad. The anger comes from the idea that our parents being human, young and non conformists, didn't really look out for their our futures and made no provisions for their kids even though they knew we'd have a difficult life ahead. My father did nothing to secure his music. My mother did nothing to stay with her own people, who although weren't wealthy, were not poor either. They'd married inter-racially at a time that pretty much guaranteeing we'd have no relationship with anyone. My sister and I are not unlike orphans, the most alone people you'll happen to meet. Which probably wouldn't have been so bad if they wouldn't have passed away at such young ages. So yes, there is a bit of resentment that big media producers can still make money as in today, off of Gene's records, It would have been nice to have something as a fall back I suppose?

Perhaps one of the most interesting and off beat  career  turns for your father was in the early 70s when he purchased and ran his own business – a doll house store in Chicago. Can you tell me more about your father’s interest in creating doll houses and miniature furnishings? Do you still have any of his miniature creations? Was this another outlet for his creativity?

The doll house store came about because he was hiding from someone. He dropped the music, wasn't playing at all. I only know he was actively hiding from a man, no details beyond that. He opened the doll house store to avoid something, We knew he was hiding but not the details of who are what he was hiding from. The doll house store was a dream for us, what little kid doesn't want their parent to own a dollhouse store. Whatever misfortune for him that forced him into starting a miniature house business, was a boon for us!  While in this store he made my sister's dollhouse which was light years ahead of the one he'd made for me and I was a bit jealous, though happy for her. The thread of carpenter ran through his life. He always made something with his hands. I think his interest in creating doll houses came from the fact that he had daughters. 

Normally furniture was his thing. It was a small place, lots of wood and tools, big front window. One day there was an electrical fire and I remember being scared to death. But if I would have cried, or shown fear he would have been very disappointed. Discipline, discipline. So I stood there and handed him scissors when he asked for them so I he could calmly cut the wires where the fire had started, before it climbed up the cord into the walls. I don't remember him ever having actually sold a doll house. But there it was. It didn't last long however, at the most a year or so. I still have my doll house. It's in pieces, but still exists. And yes, to use his hands was another outlet for his creativity. I think he felt it was real, honest.

 

You also write that in the late 60s your father left the United States for a 2 year stint working and living alone in South America (Where?). Can you tell me about this? Were you in touch with him when he was overseas? Was this move related to his spiritual beliefs (Gurijeff)? 

Yes he did. He left the country for Panajachel Guatamala! There wasn't any one specific reason that he went. He was tired of the US, (had great things to say about Canada though) and took a break from it. He absolutely loved it there, described the people and the place. He'd write about getting a camper and all of us driving there. We had many letters from him. He was so excited about it, one whole letter was devoted to the little monkeys that kept trying to break into his room through the window! When he returned, he went straight to California, Santa Monica.

This is perhaps a sensitive question – but the circumstances of your father’s passing in August 1973-74 (I just like to confirm the exact dates)  remain very much mysterious. Just for the public/historical record – what were the exact circumstances of his death?

Gene died in August, 1974 from lung cancer. At the time he was living with a woman named Lisa, so I know a bit of the details. He had a cough that wouldn't go away. Dr.s discovered a large spot on the upper right lobe of his lung. The Dr. said that if they operated, he wouldn't be able to walk more than a block, and that he wouldn't have more than 5 years anyway. He decided to stick it out, never took any drugs, and Lisa, took care of him. Before he was diagnosed he was talking about a band named Christian. But no one seems to know anything about this. He also kept saying he was about to find "IT" What "IT" was was something only my mother understood although I think it relates to the article in which he talks about the essence of things. His last letter was happy, on the verge of ecstatic, and just one sentence; he had FOUND "IT".  He was 47. Lisa told me that he tried to describe what dying was like.  He said he saw a bright light and heard some really beautiful music and then he said he saw a beautiful lady standing in front of him with her hand out stretched to him.., and then he died. His ashes are scattered in Santa Monica. 

Strangely enough my mother also passed around the same age. She too chose to stick it out, took no drugs, same disease. Neither of them believed in the cure they'd have to go through. It was against "the work." Lisa found out later that she was pregnant and eventually gave birth to our half brother Lion who will be very grateful if you discover any stories about his father as he never got a chance to know him. As for Lisa herself.. She once tried to tell me that the work of Gurjieff was exactly the same as the idea behind the; "science of getting rich". Which is so completely off base it made me wonder if she'd ever spoken deeply to my father at all. She was pretty young though. So you can try to talk to her if you'd like, not sure what you'll get from that though. Let me know.

Nearly four decades after your father’s passing – his music still remains vital and still attracts a small but very passionate following – the cult of Gene Shaw! How would you like your father to be remembered? What legacy did he leave for his family and his children?

I would like my father to be remembered for his courage. For his continuing effort throughout life to really live it, to help others to awake, through his words and his music. How everyday he  questioned what most of us take for granted. And of course for the brief moments of bliss and genius he gave to this world through the voice of his trumpet. What legacy did he leave us?A mystery....He spent his whole life searching for a mystery and than he turned the search over to us.  It's worth it to read a little more about Gurjieff because it's seems like it's a deeply spiritual thing that many important people have been apart of, but no one knows thing about! Gurjieff people will NEVER come knocking on your door!

People involved with Gurjieff

http://www.gurdjieffclub.ru/?id=933

The Gurjieff Foundation, NY

http://www.gurdjieff-foundation-newyork.org/

Book:

Links:

 The Fourth Way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Way

Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panajachel_calle_santandar_guat.JPG